Who will win the award for Most Tragic? Miller? Williams? Support your choice. Discuss your approach with your classmates:)
Who will win the award for Most Tragic? Miller? Williams? Support your choice. Discuss your approach with your classmates:)
I am organizing paper by discussing the tragic elements spaced out into three paragraphs. So the first one will discuss character and diction. The next one will discuss spectacle and music(all sounds). Finally, I will discuss the plot and theme. Anyone have any other ideas on how to organize???
ReplyDeleteI was going to organize by analyzing tragic hero, tragic flaw, and catharsis in each. But is this too cut and dry?
ReplyDeleteNicole. Post the actual thesis. We can probably tell more about the "cut and dry" worry that you convey in your post. BTW, thanks for posting first:)
ReplyDeleteJoe. First of all, apologies...YOU posted first:) Thanks:) Now, I will give the same advice to you that I gave to Nicole...post the thesis. My concern, which could be assuaged by a thesis post, is that you may lack cohesiveness. Let's check out the thesis and see how we feel:)
ReplyDeleteSuggestion on the conclusion... use that as your "sell" for your choice. Conclusions should always leave one with a lasting impression.
ReplyDeleteCaution... do not sell your choice by devaluing the other. That is not the point of a compare/contrast/evaluative paper. Present your case by virtue of the proof. Coax the reader; do not pull the reader by his/her front teeth;) This shows finesse:)
Mrs. Edwards-
ReplyDeleteIf I have an encyclopedia article without an author, how do I do the parenthetical citation?
Also I was going to do one body paragraph discussing elements in each play and one paragraph selling which is better. Should I reorganize to get that last body paragraph as my conclusion?
ReplyDeleteKevin. You alphabetize by the first maj. word of the title of the article. You use that word in the parenthetical citation and maintain the punctuation. For example, the article's title is "Apple Trees of the North"... citation is ("Apple"). Do this unless you name the article in the body of the writing; in that case, there is no need for a parenthetical citation.
ReplyDeleteIn regard to your second post, it is hard to say without seeing the thesis. REMEMBER...thesis dictates order of discussion! Also, make sure you see the caution statement in my previous post. Be careful to show a professional respect for both plays/authors. Maintain a respectful, professional approach.
Here is my thesis, but I am not sure if this is too one sided:
ReplyDeleteBoth of these tragedies demonstrate key tragic elements, but it is Tennessee Williams’ "A Streetcar Named Desire” that more effectively portrays the elements of tragedy through the characterization of the tragic hero, the use of music and spectacle, and catharsis.
Ok here is my thesis:
ReplyDeleteBy incorporating such tragic elements as portraying a tragic character, universality, complex plot conflicts, and eliciting catharsis, both Death of a Salesman and A Streetcar Named Desire are exceptional and commendable examples of the tragic style, however Death of a Salesman is more exemplary due to its varied and more appropriate use of tragic elements.
I was planning on explaining how each similarly uses these elements and then using my third to explain why I think salesman is better but I won't devaluate streetcar
Here's a rough draft of my thesis.
ReplyDeleteAlthough both Arthur Miller's "Death of a Salesman" and Tennessee Williams' "A Streetcar Named Desire" contain the tragic aspects of the principle character's self deceit, search for meaning, and fate, Williams is more effective in portraying these elements to the audience.
Suggestions? Is it too wordy/long?
Emily-
ReplyDeleteI like it I think it is well-worded and sets up your paper nicely.
anyone who knows-
When we put the title of the play, do we underline it, italicize it, or put it in quotes?
I just looked it up and the website I found said to italicize the titles of plays. But I am not sure if the others are appropriate also.
ReplyDeleteJoe. It is a stand alone. Treat as you would the title of a book; therefore, italics are appropriate. Also, you may want to consider a semicolon construction, instead of a comma. That would be more appropriate in this circumstance.
ReplyDeleteKevin. Use your Writers Inc. It would answer most of the questions that you have posed:)
ReplyDeleteAlthough both plays are doubtlessly tragedies, Arthur Miller’s Death of a Salesman portrays tragic hero, missed chance of redemption, and catharsis more effectively compared to A Streetcar Named Desire by Tennessee Williams.
ReplyDeleteEmily. I do like the thesis. IT has some great areas of exploration. The only suggestion is that you may want to do something with the end of it..."Fate." The other aspects have more substance; perhaps an adjective...a description. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteNicole. The only part that troubles me is the "more effectively" aspect. Save that type of strong statement for the conclusion. Are you going "purist" on the tragic elements? ...ala Aristotelian? If so, you may want to convey that via your thesis, thus focusing your reader in that way.
ReplyDeleteKevin. Use a semicolon before however and maintain the comma afterwards. It is a bit wordy, pre semicolon location (per suggestion). Also, the "more exemplary" is a bit on the awkward side. Can you find one word to take the place of two? Also, rethink "more appropriate"...Is there a better way to say this? Maybe ramping the vocab is the direction that you need to go. Also, utilize a more complex sentence structure by using the semicolon construction.
ReplyDeleteThoughts on a multi sentence approach to a thesis statement... First of all, there is such an entity. That being said, you should be careful when using this type of construction. The risk that you run is that you may "string the ideas" through several sentences, losing your focus and making your reader "look" for your intention. That is sort a dangerous thing to do. Personally, I go for a strong, focused, engaging intro, leading to a succinct, one sentence construction thesis. It is not the only way to do it; it is just the way that I personally prefer in my own writing. If you want to do a multi sentence thesis, be careful and do not lose your focus. Does this make sense???
ReplyDeleteHere is a revision of my thesis with the semi colon:
ReplyDeleteBoth of these tragedies demonstrate key tragic elements, but it is Tennessee Williams’ A Streetcar Named Desire that better portrays the elements of tragedy; the tragic hero, music and spectacle, and catharsis.
Semicolon is incorrect where you have it. If you use this thesis, you need a colon for a list effect. Semicolons are used to connect two sentences that are closely associated by thought. Use that rule when you are debating semicolon versus another type of punctuation. Colons are used for lists and also to sep. items in a series when commas/colons are used within the list (i.e. dates, times). Does that make sense?
ReplyDeleteYes thanks! Also, while I was reading through some of the worksheets you gave us I found the six elements of tragedy and one of them was music/rhythm. The description made it sound like it was more related to dialogue, but I read in several places it could also be related to sounds in general. Is this true? because I wanted to tie in the use of sound(music) and light (via spectacle) into my paper.
ReplyDeleteUtikize the info that you found as a secondary source, thus justifying your focus on sound/music and light/spectacle. This could be interesting:D I hope it works!!
ReplyDeleteThanks Kevin!
ReplyDeleteMrs. Edwards- I think you are right. What about saying "inevitable, tragic fate" to describe it a bit more?
So...I am having trouble saying one is "better" than the other. Would it be acceptable to say something like "Both tragedies, especially Williams' 'A Streetcar Named Desire', exemplify tragic elements through their characterization, character choices, and reliance on society..." something like that? I don't know. I just hate trying to say one is better than the other...PS this isn't my actual thesis just an example.
ReplyDeleteJeff-
ReplyDeleteWe're not saying one is better. We're saying one has more tragic elements therefore making it more tragic then the other. It's not which one you think is a good play, its which one is more tragic.
I am here to post about the Twiz tomorrow.
-matching(around 20) of important places, people, items, and concepts. I believe this is on both plays, but if not, only Salesman.
-6 Short answer(choose 5). Salesman. Most are quotes(most from Discussion Questions).
---Streetcar---
-Identify speaker and significance quotes(10) choose 8.
-Free response question-marraige
--How could these plays stand as cautionary to those who seek marraige?
(Balance your discussion between both plays and provide proof.)
Hope that helped those of you who didn't get enough time!
Thanks, Emily. :)
ReplyDeleteOk. You guys are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO good to each other:) Thanks Miss Em for helping everyone:)
ReplyDeleteHere's my thesis
ReplyDeleteBoth Arthur Miller’s Death of a Salesman and Tennessee Williams’ A Streetcar Named Desire both are excellent examples of aristotelian tragedies, but Williams' masterpiece is greater in terms of its plot, character, diction, music and Katharsis.
Flint. Check capitalization and spellling (I see a couple of wonky mistakes). Also, would it be better to say that it has greater tragic impact??? Rather than just "greater"... Just a thought:)
ReplyDeleteIs this paper allowed to be any longer than five pages? I remember Mr. Clutter used to let us write longer than the posted length, but I don't know if you allow that. My paper is a little long, but I can always condense if not. :) Thanks.
ReplyDeleteThis is my thesis
ReplyDeleteTennessee Williams’ A Streetcar Named Desire and Arthur Miller’s Death of a Salesman are both outstanding examples of modern tragedy, however, Miller remains truer to Aristotelian tragedy through the use of self imposed suffering, characterization, and use of music.
This is my Thesis, any suggestions?
ReplyDeleteAlthough Death of a Salesman and A Streetcar Named Desire both contain prominent elements of tragedy, Williams’ piece demonstrates a closer structure to that of an Aristotelian tragedy through the depiction of human frailty, a disheartening demise of nobility, merciless fate, and the use of catharsis as a societal revelation.
Here is my thesis so far:
ReplyDeleteBoth Tennessee Williams' A Streetcar Named Desire and Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman present tragic elements, but the latter better demonstrates Aristotelian tragedy through Miller's use of plot, characterization, music, and catharsis.
Also Mrs. Edwards, I was wondering if I could reference the Outline of Aristotle's Theory of Tragedy in the Poetics for my paper. I will still have the 2 critical reviews but I think I can more effectively portray my ideas if I use this to explain Aristotelian tragedy more effectively.
Ellen, I like the way you are addressing the specific stage directions and lighting/costume/sound elements since they add such weight to both plays!
ReplyDeleteArthur Miller’s Death of A Salesman and Tennessee Williams’ A Streetcar Named Desire are similar in their modern utilization of classical tragic elements including the annihilation of major characters, the defeat of the affluent and refined, as well as the self-inflicted suffering of the tragic hero.
I might still change some of the words, but here it is.
Also, the way I interpreted the assignment, I gathered we were just supposed to compare them on tragic terms, not necessarily choose which one is "better". Am I wrong in this?
Audrey, we're supposed to compare their tragic elements but also choose which play utilizes the elements best- not just better in general. The prompt says, "according to your evaluation, which playwright is most effective in portraying the elements of tragedy?"
ReplyDeleteAudrey
ReplyDeleteIt is supposed to be an opinion based essay that we support with quotes from the book. I was confused about this too but reading the other thesis statements helped me. So I do think that we have to compare and contrast the plays but also state which one we think is closer to aristotelian tragedy, not necessarily better. Does this help?
Ellen. You can use it:)
ReplyDeleteKelsey. You can go over a bit. The stated page limit is enough to "get the job done." The ability to be succinct is an asset; it conveys confidence.
All. The paper is a comparison/evaluative paper; therefore, some aspect of contrast is implicit.
I have a dumb question, but I'd rather ask it to be sure that guess and get it marked wrong on the paper.
ReplyDeleteThe possessive form of "Williams." Everyone on here is using "Williams'" (which I thought was right), but I keep finding stuff online that says the correct way is "Williams's." Kind of an embarrassing question since this is both an AP class and my last year in high school.
here's my new thesis
ReplyDeleteBoth Arthur Miller’s Death of a Salesman and Tennessee Williams’ a Streetcar Named Desire are excellent examples of Aristotelian tragedies in terms of their illustrious plots, multifaceted characters, use of diction, and provocation of Catharsis, but Miller’s masterpiece, Death of a Salesman, had a greater tragic impact.
Brigitte, I feel like you would say Williams', so that's what I've been using.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Edwards or anyone good at works cited: I'm looking in the planner for MLA documentation and it's different from last year for books and websites. It now says to italicize books instead of underlining and to put the type of print at the end. For websites it now doesn't ask for . Which should I follow, or does it really matter??
Nicole. The info in your planner is consistent with the info that my sons have in their MLA guides from UC. I would go with that. Who knows why they change things like they do??? (rhetorical question) Go with the info in the planner; it is what you will encounter at college:)
ReplyDeleteBrigette. There is no such thing as a stupid question:) Use Williams'.
Ok so here's my thesis, any comments or changes would be greatly apperciated :)
ReplyDeleteArthur Miller’s Death of a Salesman and Tennessee Williams’ A Streetcar Named Desire are both exemplary portrayals of the American tragedy, each divulge into the depiction of the tragic flawed character; but Arthur Miller is stronger in his illustration of their contortion of the truth, deception to loved ones, blindness of wealth, and delusion of reality.
Here's my thesis:
ReplyDeleteBoth Williams' A Streetcar Named Desire and Miller's Death of a Salesman exemplify the traits necessary for an American tragedy, but even though many connect well with Williams' play it is actually Miller that best portrays the elements of tragedy as proven by the plot, the character's self-imposed suffering, and the katharsis at the end of his moving play.
Any tips?
Almost forgot to post my thesis!
ReplyDeleteWhile investigating Miller and Williams’ works one will find that Tennessee Williams’ A Streetcar Named Desire is truly a superior rendition of a tragic play according to the tragic elements of deliberate characterization, descriptive stage direction, and heart wrenching catharsis.
Tennessee Williams’ A Streetcar Named Desire and Arthur Miller’s Death of a Salesman both highly exemplify Aristotelian elements of tragedy, though through the depiction of character, emphasis on diction, as well as spectacle and music, Williams’ masterpiece better demonstrates these elements of tragedy
ReplyDeleteA couple of questions... a lot of people are using 4 major points in their essay (and so therefore, probably, 4 body paragraphs)... is this an extra requirement or are people just doing this coincidentally?
ReplyDeleteAlso, for Mrs. E: I would like to base my evaluation on the plays on both Aristotle's outline of tragedy but also incorporate Hegel's theory of tragedy...I think I can make it work for both, but I didn't know if this was allowed?
Jeff. You may discuss that aspect. I was planning on hitting Hegel's theory in relation to Ibsen; however, you are more than welcome to discuss this aspect in your paper. Curious... Are you thinking of a character focus in relation to morality and choices?
ReplyDeleteYes, I was going to discuss the collision of ethics for the individual versus that of the absolute and also discuss how they are rooted in the character's hamartia, which will eventually lead to their downfall.
ReplyDeleteJeff, I was wondering the same thing! I was planning on only doing 3 elements, but is that going to look bad since many people are using 4?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm discussing character as one of my elements of tragedy and I'm struggling with how both plays are or are not "true to life, and yet more beautiful." I guess I just don't see how either play is idealized or ennobled.
Help?
Mrs. Edwards - would it be too specific if I were to focus my body paragraphs on self imposed blindness, abandonment, and the the concept of reaping what you sow?
ReplyDeleteAlthough both Williams' A Streetcar Named Desire and Miller's Death of a Salesman are commendable Aristotelian tragedies utilizing the aspects of self imposed blindness, abandonment and the concept of reaping what you sow, Miller has more successfully exemplified the elements of tragedy.
I'm doing power struggle instead of abandonment
ReplyDeleteAll. Do NOT think of 4 paragraphs vs. five...or three... Just cover your topic. Now, that being said, you must learn to LIMIT yourself! For instance, the REAL world is that when a prof says five pages, that is what he means. True story... my son just finished a paper for a history class this weekend. This paper had a limit of five pages. His prof said that anything over 5 1/2 will not be read/scored. Just as we are learning to work with the time demon on tests, we are also learning to work within specific parameters set forth by profs. I know it seems arbitrary to just assign a "number of pages." However, that is reality. Always approach your papers with a well ordered thesis. Plan your supports. Articulate your points. Proof it. Then leave it. More is not always better. This is just the way it is:( have confidence in your ability! Organize, articulate, proof...be done! Your prof will not judge you on the amount of paragraphs; he will judge you on your support and articulation:) I believe in you:)
ReplyDeleteAll. Okay, I had to go and stir my chili;) Now, what do I mean about articulation... That is how you phrase, the words that you choose, the structure of your sentences. THAT is where you impress your prof. If the prof gives you a five page limit, he/she knows that this is enough space to prove your point. Now, PROOF...you guys know my motto, "Go to your place of strength." Choose your best points of discussion and go deep there. BOOKS have been written on the subjects that you are investigating. I realize that this is a response paper, not a full blown novel. I want to see how you support your opinion. This type of paper is very, very common in college, perhaps more common than longer research papers:) You need to practice this form. Don't spread yourself to thin. There is a myriad of directions that you can go. Go strong and write with confidence. Use high vocabulary and appropriate sentence structure. Know that I KNOW that this is not a full out research paper:) You will be fine. I hope this helps!! I do not want you to worry!!
ReplyDeleteMrs. edwards - I am doing characterization but cannot choose 2 others because I am having a hard time developing enough proof for each of the other ideas. with catharsis, I would only consider blanche going to the hospital, where she belongs,?and willys death to be examples. Could o expand on those ideas or isthat not enough for a paragraph
ReplyDeleteCorie. Are you doing facets of characterization? I think that there are a few people doing that... I'm trying to undertstand a little more fully what you are saying...
ReplyDelete